Level 20: Realm of the Gods

Posted: 23 July 2012 in Game Structure
Tags: , ,
The Preamble

In the comments on my post about Falling Damage, Brenden mentioned his mechanisms for making falling “always scary” but allowing good luck to save you from even extreme falls.  I liked the system but noted that I don’t think falling is always scary, because eventually the PCs are at near-god levels, and Superman isn’t afraid of falling off a building or two.  From there, Dr. Gentleman posted this:

I think the idea that higher-level characters in D&D are akin to demigods is one that makes the system make more sense (and actually makes me want to look at 3e again), but I don’t think that’s the intent of D&D. Heroes go on adventures, gain experience, skills, abilities, and treasure, but they’re still essentially human (elf, dwarf, or whatever). The idea that an exceptional person can gain experience and thereby become the equivalent of a demigod or superhero is not a basic assumption when it comes to D&D, which leads to a lot of complaints about realism. I think that’s a pretty fundamental difference in assumptions, and needs to be explicitly cleared up straight away in these types of discussions.

Except that I think that this is the intent and, if a little buried, that it is fairly clear when you look for what the system ask for.

On Intent

First, though, there’s a couple of things to say about “the intent of D&D.”  I think there are essentially two ideas in play here — the intent of the designers as they build D&D, and the actual “intent” (for lack of a better word) of the system that resulted from their efforts.  I would sincerely like to believe that the designers of 3.X had some notion of what they held in their hands — the post by Justin Alexander that I base most of my assumptions on, allegedly based off of a playtest copy of the Player’s Handbook in 1999, at least alludes to the fact that all the foundation was there in the beginning.  As Brenden notes back on the Falling post, though, it could be that Justin made the notion up on his own and the designers of the system didn’t consciously intend that outcome.  I think it’s highly probably that they were simply trying to clean up the rules system from 2nd Edition.

Fine, the designers weren’t planning on that.  I’m not sure that matters.  If the system that they created is more easily understood and approached with the understanding that “regular people” are 1st level and gods are 20th level, and the various tiers of mythic hero fall in between, then I would argue that’s the proper way to approach it; that’s what the game intends.  The developers may have stumbled upon it by happy coincidence, but that doesn’t change the way the system works or the way it’s best understood.

On Challenges

One of the things that strikes me the most when discussing this apparent misunderstanding of the game is looking at the sorts of challenges that high level characters are expected to engage.  Challenge Rating is defined in the SRD as “the level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty.” So a single CR 20 creature is “moderate difficulty” for a party (I believe that’s 4 or 5 characters in 3.X) of 20th Level characters.  In 3.X, ignoring Dragons, that gives us the Balor, the Pit Fiend, and the Tarrasque.  The Balor is based off of the Balrog from Tolkien Lord of the Rings; Balrogs are suspected of being corrupted Maia, high-ranking “angels” only a step or two removed from The One (God).  Pit Fiends are literally lords of the Pit and the rulers of Hell.  And the Tarrasque is assumed to have been a weapon made to kill gods.  These are the things that pose a “moderately difficult” encounter to a handful of Level 20 characters.

Moving on, if a CR 1 creature poses a challenge for a group of Level 1 characters, presumably a creature of CR 1/4 should be about even with one Player Character (since it would be a 4 v 4 fight).  A CR 1/4 creature is effectively 3 levels lower than a CR 1 creature (based on the way 3.X figures CRs below 1).  By that it would follow that a single CR 17 creature should be the equivalent of a CR 20 PC.  This gives us an Aboleth Mage, Maralith Demon, Frost Giant Jarl, and various old dragons. Dropping to CR 16 we find the Planetar Angel, one of the highest-ranking angels described.  So a 20th Level PC is more powerful than most angels.

The same pattern follows as you move down, with Lv15 PCs taking on angels and being the equivalent of adult dragons, and Lv12 PCs taking on Kraken and being the equivalent of Greater Elementals and mid-level Angels and Demons.  Killing a Hydra, a CR 4 creature (assuming it started with 5 heads) is literally a Herculean feat (since it was 1 v 1, Hercules would have been between Lv6 and Lv8, presumably).

On Skills

If we assume average abilities, a Level 20 character will have +20 (give or take) on his key skills.  This means that (save for the rule of Natural 1 always being failure) the worst they can do is better than the best that a regular person can do. They can Take 10 and successfully navigate a heavily obscured, severely slippery surface less than 2 inches wide.  A 15th Level character can do the same if the surface isn’t obscured.  That is to say, given that they aren’t pressed for time or under some kind of duress, they can do this with an average, rote level of effort.  A Level 15 sage can Take 10 on “really tough” questions, and a Level 10 Character can Take 10 on Spot and become aware of invisible creatures.

Wrap Up

This is just the off-the-cuff stuff I was able to grab from the SRD in response to The Doctor’s comment; I’ve found that the more time I spend looking at the system itself the more this notion of PCs over level 5 (or even Level 3) are something “more than human” makes sense.  At the lower levels you’re talking about Game of Thrones, Fellowship of the Ring, and possibly Conan (I still haven’t read any of those), but at the higher end characters are simply capable of absolutely fantastical feats, without any real effort.  The designers may not talk about immortality, but everything else points to being on the threshold of godhood.  Add to that the incredible amount of HP such a creature has, resulting in the ability to take an impressive amount of punishment before dying.  That this is misunderstood by hobbyists at large speaks to me of a great failing of those presenting the system (and maybe their own misunderstanding of what they’d wrought).

A Note On Experience

The knot in this whole thing is the experience system.  As I’ve eluded to elsewhere (the full post on Experience hasn’t been finished yet), it simply doesn’t make sense that someone could massacre a sufficient number of goblins and then take on the likes of Zeus.  If that happens, the DM is doing something wrong, applying the strict mathematical mechanics of the game without thinking about what they mean.  This isn’t entirely his fault; I think the experience system itself has flaws because it allows this sort of abuse.  I’m inclined to attach level advancement to in-story/in-world accomplishments, and having those accomplishments be suitably mythic as characters rise through the various tiers.

  1. I like the idea (as I said). However, I very thoroughly disagree with your rationale. To decide what the game means based on the mechanics, and then deride anyone who uses the experience system as written as “doing something wrong, applying the strict mathematical mechanics of the game without thinking about what they mean” is just bad reasoning. You can’t pick and choose the parts that fit with your idea and say that the parts that don’t are flawed. It’s an alternate view, and it’s one that I enjoy, but it’s too far to say that it’s what the game intends, regardless of the intent of the designers.

    • Jack says:

      Perhaps a fair criticism, and obviously I don’t mean to say anyone is “having fun wrong,” but given the choice between “D&D works, except that XP is sometimes wonky” and “D&D doesn’t work because XP is sometimes wonky,” I’ll take the former.

      • I think anyone would, but that’s a false choice. There are other ways in which the system doesn’t match up to what’s expected, not just experience. Taking the idea that levels above 5 are demigod levels, and that Hercules would be 8th level (this post) or 12th level (comments here – http://largepolyhedroncollider.wordpress.com/2012/06/18/the-realities-of-falling-giving-gravity-the-respect-it-deserves/), at 12th level, Hercules would have a maximum of 21 strength, barring magic and magic items. Using the example of breaking down a door that was given in the Alexandrian post you linked to means that Hercules could break down a good front door in one hit about 40% of the time, and for a barred iron door, only a 5% chance. For a character that you say is equivalent to a Greater Elemental, a mid-level Angel or Demon, that’s pretty sad. Especially for modeling someone who can literally reroute rivers.

        • Jack says:

          It was the choice you presented me with (to paraphrase, “you can’t argue based on mechanics and then complain about XP”). You make a good point in bringing up attributes, though, which I can’t immediately answer. That being said, the game does assume characters will have magical augmentation, and it’s not absurd to say there must be something magical about Hercules as well.

    • casewerk says:

      I’m certainly not interested in accusing anybody of having WrongBadFun, and I’m not especially interested in using DnD to model godlike heroes… a look at the system’s history will, in my personal opinion, make it pretty clear that the system was in fact intended to model characters that are in fact demigods and capable of challenging the heavens.

      The old Deities and Demigods book was essentially a higher-level Monster Manual of things for player characters to challenge and overcome. Going back even further than that, we have basic D&D having rules for PCs to achieve actual godhood, and a whole series of adventures that were released with the intention of ushering PCs through that process and then, once achieved, pitting them against their fellow gods and major demon lords. I think it was pretty clearly the intent at a fairly early stage that this was where guys like Gygax and Arneson saw things going. The system and the hobby have gone through a lot of shifting expectations over the years, but the way the system is now is either a somewhat incoherent artifact of those early expectations or a system designed to continue encouraging them, yet with some baggage pulling in the other direction as well.

      Perhaps those expectations aren’t what you want in a high level game, and I certainly won’t fault you for that. It’s not really what I want either most of the time. But at high levels the DnD system certainly hasn’t got much interest in modeling “Reality” so much as mythic-grade adventure.

      • Jack says:

        Useful history; I grew up in Palladium, so I missed a lot of the foundation of D&D. As far as “not what you want in a high level game” I agree. I’m generally disinterested in D&D above level 3 or 5, but I don’t think the system’s ability to model higher powered stories is a failure of the system.

  2. I think it’s interesting to look back at how characters interacted in Chainmail (and ostensibly OD&D). Heroes (i.e. 4th level fighters) could challenge entire units of troops single-handedly and Super-Heroes (i.e. 8th level fighters) could reasonably challenge an army made up of regular troops. OD&D intended you use the Chainmail combat system, and the d20 attack chart was an afterthought added when (probably) they realized that maybe everyone wouldn’t have a copy of Chainmail. That chart turned early D&D into the medieval horror game we are familiar of in the old school, while Chainmail allowed your 1st level fighter in platemail to potentially survive 72 attacks from spears and other common weapons before taking a fatal hit (by which time he should have long ago leveled a couple of times so such a hit would not longer be fatal at all).

    This was a Heculean character!

    It’s a bit sad that each addition of D&D has made fighters weaker and casters stronger, but they were certainly ‘greater heroes’ at high level originally.

    Now, how much of that made it into 3rd, I can’t say, but there you go.

  3. […] Higher level NPCs may exist, but just like PCs they are suitably Heroic, Mythic, Legendary, or God-like as […]

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s